Is your god even LIKEABLE?

[Wyzaard]

Well, a few nights ago, Fadi and I were chatting it up about religion-stuff late into the night, when we strayed onto the likeablity of this god he was claiming to know all sorts of stuff about.

Apparently, he's really down with a being which deliberately created a universe (including environmental conditions and parameters of free agency) in which most human beings will go to suffer for eternity... just so he will feel 'glorified'.

Now, apart from the obvious questions (such as why this being needs or wants glory, why do we have to unjustly suffer for it when any and all other scenarios can exist at any point under this god's power), how can anyone even LIKE such a god? Why would you willingly subjugate yourself to such a tyrant... is it just to save your sweet, sweet asses?

[kenzie]

damnit im no longer a god....Backstabs wyzaard

[Knife Boy]

Well according to god, if you believe in leading by example, Might does make right. Your not doing what I want, bam, PLAGUE on your ass. What you don't think I'm the coolest thing since sliced break, here have a fucking FLOOD. Broke a rule I made up, here have some ETERNAL DAMNATION. Personally I find that quite likeable.

[LLCoolJay]

My god is a real cocksucking bastard. Seriously he does it with guys.

[camcgee]

of course, as ppl, we feel that wanting to be glorified or glorifying yourself is wrong because none of us is really any better than anyone else. but if God is perfect, he deserves to be glorified and should be by his own creation. when people do things that are wrong they cannot be closer, or with God. The Biblical definition of heaven is not a place where we are rewarded for being good, but a place where we will worship God for eternity ( in other words, a place where we will be perfected). This, according to the Bible, is what will happen to us, but the most important thing is that heaven is not about us. So, since God is perfect and we are not, it only makes sense that we deserve seperation from God unless we have some mechanism for repentance. To the question of suffering, it really is up to us whether we suffer or not. if no one ever did anything wrong, there would be no death or suffering, as well as no need for hell. However, because of the entrance of sin into the word, not even necessarily the sufferors sin but sin in general, we must suffer. From a Christian point of view, everyone deserves death, hell and suffering, so anyone who is allowed to go to heaven or not to suffer is participating in the grace of God.

[Wyzaard]

Originally posted by camcgee
of course, as ppl, we feel that wanting to be glorified or glorifying yourself is wrong because none of us is really any better than anyone else.

Well, you CAN be better than other people... depending upon which convention you use.

but if God is perfect, he deserves to be glorified and should be by his own creation.

Why, if such a being is reprehensible? Why does ANYTHING deserve anything?

when people do things that are wrong they cannot be closer, or with God.

Who says we do 'wrong'? Who decided that no one could get 'closer'? Sounds like this god is either making up shit, or is under the sway of a mightier law.

The Biblical definition of heaven is not a place where we are rewarded for being good, but a place where we will worship God for eternity ( in other words, a place where we will be perfected).

Not my idea of perfection, sorry; slavery maybe, but not perfection. Perhaps you need to show HOW this makes us 'perfect'... and which version thereof.

This, according to the Bible, is what will happen to us, but the most important thing is that heaven is not about us. So, since God is perfect and we are not, it only makes sense that we deserve seperation from God unless we have some mechanism for repentance.

Ummm... we are ONLY as this god chose to create us, defined as humans with limited parameters of possible action in a specific environment. We ONLY act within the bounds set by this god; we CANNOT disobey... we act as this god created us to. In a sense, we ARE perfect... just not exhaustively so. We deserve nothing, and need nothing.

To the question of suffering, it really is up to us whether we suffer or not. if no one ever did anything wrong, there would be no death or suffering, as well as no need for hell.

There is no 'need' of hell now; god could simply snap his fingers and right all of this. BUT... it chose to create such creatures who's majority will suffer... becuase this god WANTS them to, for it's motives. I did not choose to be dangled over the abyss, nor be in a more favorable position to be thrown in.

However, because of the entrance of sin into the word, not even necessarily the sufferors sin but sin in general, we must suffer.

Sin didn't 'have' to enter, and we don't 'have' to suffer... all of this was god's doing, not ours.

From a Christian point of view, everyone deserves death, hell and suffering, so anyone who is allowed to go to heaven or not to suffer is participating in the grace of God.

I obey by the default of being a god-created being; I neither deserve heaven not hell... and besides, as this god can choose whether or not anyone 'participates' for any reason...

To purposely maintain a system in which most will be born, die, and burn paints him as a terribly wicked fuckwad.

[kenzie]

So, since God is perfect and we are not, it only makes sense that we deserve seperation from God unless we have some mechanism for repentance.

sounds like CS lewis to me....

The Biblical definition of heaven is not a place where we are rewarded for being good, but a place where we will worship God for eternity ( in other words, a place where we will be perfected).

we will be perfected....sounds like the hindu idea of return

also how do you get to heaven? by believing in God? if so then it still is a country club.

[camcgee]

sounds like CS lewis to me....

i wonder why? mere christianity was his attempt to explain what christianity really is, similar to what i was trying to do.

we will be perfected....sounds like the hindu idea of return

i really dont know if it does or not, but it really makes no difference whether or not it does. also, this is not the only facet of heaven that i discussed. whats more important is that heaven, in christianity is not a reward for ppl who have died.

also how do you get to heaven? by believing in God? if so then it still is a country club.

except that to be a member of a country club, you have to do something to earn the money to pay your membership dues. however, this is not the case in the heaven of christanity. it simply requires that you give your life to God, nothing more, nothing less. notice that this does not equate with believing in God, though it does include it, as the Bible states that "even satan believes in God." also, if heaven was a country club, what would be your objections to its nature? instead of throwing around labels like "country club" just describe what you mean

[camcgee]

sounds like CS lewis to me....

also remember that what CS Lewis was talking about was not his exclusive version of "lewisian christianity"

[kenzie]

i really dont know if it does or not, but it really makes no difference whether or not it does. also, this is not the only facet of heaven that i discussed. whats more important is that heaven, in christianity is not a reward for ppl who have died.

Actually there are MANY theologins who consider heaven to be a reward actions on earth. Most evengelicals will say that. Also the question is why is a moral person who does not believe in god excluded from heaven. If their reasonings are social then are they to blaim?

[kenzie]

except that to be a member of a country club, you have to do something to earn the money to pay your membership dues. however, this is not the case in the heaven of christanity. it simply requires that you give your life to God, nothing more, nothing less. notice that this does not equate with believing in God, though it does include it, as the Bible states that "even satan believes in God." also, if heaven was a country club, what would be your objections to its nature? instead of throwing around labels like "country club" just describe what you mean

So actually you are paying dues, which are "giving your life to God." Also the problem here is the punishment/reward scale is completely skewed. If you are good and believe in god then you go to heaven (how is that NOT a reward). But if you are good but fail to believe in the "correct" god you go to hell. The same punishment for someone who raped and killed 40 people. Now why the eternal punishment for finite crimes. And how can a Loving god punish those who fail to see the "hidden god". So yes Heaven is a country club where only a select few can get in, and unless you have the SPECIFIC requirements your cast down.

[camcgee]

actually, what i said about heaven isnt exclusionary at all. anybody who wants to get in and knows how can do so. as to punishment for sins, notice that God being perfect, he cannot allow imperfection to enter into heaven. this means that ANY sin is grounds for not being admitted to heaven, thus, the need for sacrifice and for Christ. christianity does not assert that you even have to be "good" to get into heaven... just that you have to be perfect. christianity does assert that no one can get into heaven by their own works, and that everyone needs some way to aton for sins, or risk hell (death). it is not a reward because it was not made to be such. hell, certainly, is a punishment, but heaven has less to do with us than to do with the worship of God. yes, some ppl dont go to heaven, so yes, it is exclusionary. however, why does it matter that it is exclusionary? why is that a bad thing to you? remember that the Bible says that God sees all sins as equal, though it doesnt say that we should see it that way. as to whether or not many or most evangelicals and theologians consider heaven to be a reward, i would say that many ppl have not spent enough time with their religion to understand what heaven is, let alone many of the other facets of their religion. whether its true or not that most ppl think that heaven is a reward and that we will be rewarded in heaven has no bearing on whether or not God is likable, or on the nature of heaven, as it is a fallacios argument

[jitspoe]

(back to the original question, since I don't have time to read the rest of the posts right now)

Being rejected, mocked, and brutally murdered so that I could live forever in paradise is pretty likeable in my book. I get to be eternally surrounded by love, peace, and joy. What's not to like about that?

[Wyzaard]

Originally posted by camcgee


except that to be a member of a country club, you have to do something to earn the money to pay your membership dues. however, this is not the case in the heaven of christanity. it simply requires that you give your life to God, nothing more, nothing less.

A requirement is something that you have to do to get something; this 'giving' of one's life is no different. Ergo, there are still dues... YOU are the dues.

[Wyzaard]

Originally posted by jitspoe
Being rejected, mocked, and brutally murdered so that I could live forever in paradise is pretty likeable in my book. I get to be eternally surrounded by love, peace, and joy. What's not to like about that?

Well... since your god's being somewhat disingenuous with the 'sin' thing... who's to say he's not pulling the wool over your eyes here are well?

No certainties, no reason for hope.